Aug
13

Interval Training – Up Your Yasso 800’s

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Photo credit:  Sprint by Flickr user frankjuarez, used under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 2.0 license.

One key element of many (though not all) marathon training programs is interval (or repeat) training.  Many programs build this interval training around 800 meter, or half-mile, intervals.  Most notably, Hal Higdon’s popular Advanced Training programs call for such intervals. In fact, 800’s for marathon preparation are so popular that they have a generally recognized name – Yasso 800’s (which really refers more to a specific set of 10 designed to test your readiness for meeting your pace goal at your marathon – more on that in a bit).  While there is some divergence in thought regarding speed work for marathon training (with some now arguing that simply doing intervals without more care and thought as to pace based on heart rate is a waste of time), it is clear that intervals will remain a popular part of most programs for years to come.

I have been running intervals for years, but I have a confession to make – I’m pretty new to the 800’s.  In fact, this training cycle is the first time I have used them.  I have long been a fan of the 1600 (or mile), and remain so to this day.  I’m not sure how that came to be, truth be told.  I think Hal used to recommend 1600’s in his programs – I can’t imagine I just added them on my own.

So, with a program that now bounces back and forth between them, I can say this – both can be made to be hard.  But it still strikes me that the 1600 is a better interval training approach than 800’s for the marathon (and I do mean running half the number of intervals versus the 800).  There are several reasons I believe this:

  • If you haven’t realized it, the marathon is pretty long.  Therefore, the longer your intervals, the better prepared you will be.
  • There is a good argument to be made for keeping your speed work aerobic vs. anaerobic.  You stand a better chance of doing this with 1600’s – you are forced to manage your pace more realistically.
  • It may well be a better predictor of your marathon time than the Yasso 800’s – see below.
  • It will help prepare you better for other races you plan along the way – even down to a 5K.

Oh yeah, and as far as recoveries, I believe in keeping them moving (typically jogging, though I’ll admit that for the last repeat or two on a difficult set, I do walk part of the repeat), and keeping them short.  I do 2 minutes on 800’s, and 3 minutes on 1600’s.  Mr. Yasso’s recommendation to do as long of a recovery (time-wise) as your interval seems a bit generous.  Honestly, it’s probably not that important, but I find that finishing your last intervals while fatigued boosts confidence and probably boosts fitness more than being better rested.

I have no scientific evidence to back this up, but it just seems in many ways like common sense.  Maybe 800’s are popular because they sound less intimidating than 1600’s (though there is nothing easy about running 10 such intervals).  Or maybe 1600’s lack the brand recognition that the “Yasso 800’s enjoy”.  If that’s the case, feel free to call them “Strosaker 1600’s” – I won’t even charge a royalty.

On the topic of using 800’s to predict marathon times, the “big deal” about the Yasso approach when it “broke” about 10 years ago was its value in making such predictions.  The “evidence” demonstrated that if you took your time for doing the 10 800’s (and is this supposed to be your average time?  Worst time in the set?  Best time in the set?), this was what you could achieve in the marathon.  There was a good discussion in the Dailymile forums a few months ago on whether this approach really was an accurate predictor.  The consensus (of six) was that it is overly optimistic.  Maybe taking your time on the 1600 intervals (doing 5 of them, in a relatively consistent pace) and dividing by two can give you a better estimate.  Or maybe doing 10 800’s and 5 1600’s (on different weeks, please) near the end of your marathon training can help you bracket a prediction – so long as you’ve also done your long runs and medium-length pace runs.

I’d be interested in your thoughts on marathon speed work, and what has or hasn’t worked for you, as well as your take on the debate over the Yasso 800’s predictive value.

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26 Comments Posted by Greg

  • http://c2boston.blogspot.com/ Brian

    Interesting stuff. My only experience with intervals are the 400′s I’ve been doing in my 5k training. I have my first half marathon coming in December. What do you think would be a good interval distance for the half?

  • http://c2boston.blogspot.com/ Brian

    Interesting stuff. My only experience with intervals are the 400′s I’ve been doing in my 5k training. I have my first half marathon coming in December. What do you think would be a good interval distance for the half?

  • http://brianvinson10.blogspot.com Rev. Run

    I’m no expert, but I like the sound of Strosaker 1600s. I’ll be sure to call them that when I run them in my training.

  • http://brianvinson10.blogspot.com Rev. Run

    I’m no expert, but I like the sound of Strosaker 1600s. I’ll be sure to call them that when I run them in my training.

  • Greg

    Thanks Brian. For the half-marathon, I think 800′s are more appropriate, but would still want to mix in some 1600′s. I tend to err on the side of longer intervals unless I’m in a strictly base-building period, at which time I’ll do some 400′s. I may do some 200′s this fall before ramping up for Boston next year, just to work on outright speed and faster leg turnover. There is no one right approach of course, so it’s partly a matter of preference, but I think the “traditional wisdom” is certainly open for debate.

  • Greg

    Thanks Brian. For the half-marathon, I think 800′s are more appropriate, but would still want to mix in some 1600′s. I tend to err on the side of longer intervals unless I’m in a strictly base-building period, at which time I’ll do some 400′s. I may do some 200′s this fall before ramping up for Boston next year, just to work on outright speed and faster leg turnover. There is no one right approach of course, so it’s partly a matter of preference, but I think the “traditional wisdom” is certainly open for debate.

  • http://chinabizgov.blogspot.com G.E. Anderson

    I asked some similar questions of a professional coach who worked with me a week ago. He said that, first of all, it is good for everyone who is training for a marathon to do interval training at various distances because each one works your muscles and cardiovascular system differently. (I think he would include hills in there as well.)

    But he also said that different athletes have different strengths and weaknesses, so while one person may benefit from doing more mile repeats, another may benefit from doing more 400s.

    The only way to really know which are more appropriate (aside from expensive blood lactate testing) is to train for, and run in, a lot of marathons. Eventually, you build up enough experience to know what is best for you.

    Since my first marathon is coming up next year, I plan to do a little of everything.

  • http://chinabizgov.blogspot.com G.E. Anderson

    I asked some similar questions of a professional coach who worked with me a week ago. He said that, first of all, it is good for everyone who is training for a marathon to do interval training at various distances because each one works your muscles and cardiovascular system differently. (I think he would include hills in there as well.)

    But he also said that different athletes have different strengths and weaknesses, so while one person may benefit from doing more mile repeats, another may benefit from doing more 400s.

    The only way to really know which are more appropriate (aside from expensive blood lactate testing) is to train for, and run in, a lot of marathons. Eventually, you build up enough experience to know what is best for you.

    Since my first marathon is coming up next year, I plan to do a little of everything.

  • Greg

    Thanks Greg, your coach sounds unusually open to a variety of approaches – far too many coaches get set on one way of doing things. The point on experimentation is valid – because there are not only so many speed work options, but also choices on weekly mileage, amount of longer distance running at marathon pace, etc., the number of variables to modify is high, and it takes a good number of data points to establish any correlations.

  • Greg

    Thanks Greg, your coach sounds unusually open to a variety of approaches – far too many coaches get set on one way of doing things. The point on experimentation is valid – because there are not only so many speed work options, but also choices on weekly mileage, amount of longer distance running at marathon pace, etc., the number of variables to modify is high, and it takes a good number of data points to establish any correlations.

  • Greg

    Great, thanks! I’ll look for them on Dailymile and Facebook.

  • Greg

    Great, thanks! I’ll look for them on Dailymile and Facebook.

  • JeanneB

    I have only used 1600′s in marathon training. I won’t say that I enjoy them, and would probably enjoy doing half the distance, but I think they work for marathons for all of the reasons that you state. I also know plenty of people that did Yasso 800′s during training and hit their “BQ” time goal…in theory. Come race day, no one was close. Just sayin.

  • JeanneB

    I have only used 1600′s in marathon training. I won’t say that I enjoy them, and would probably enjoy doing half the distance, but I think they work for marathons for all of the reasons that you state. I also know plenty of people that did Yasso 800′s during training and hit their “BQ” time goal…in theory. Come race day, no one was close. Just sayin.

  • Greg

    Thanks for commenting here finally Jeanne (just sayin’). On your last point, it is certainly conceivable that you could throw down 10 800′s at a consistent 3:15 yet completely flop at the marathon if you haven’t built up enough distance. And I found in this training cycle that doing 800′s made the 1600′s seem much harder, like they go on forever. Not sure if that’s a good or bad thing, but it is absolutely noticeable. I would be scared about getting too “comfortable” with 800′s or anything shorter.

  • Greg

    Thanks for commenting here finally Jeanne (just sayin’). On your last point, it is certainly conceivable that you could throw down 10 800′s at a consistent 3:15 yet completely flop at the marathon if you haven’t built up enough distance. And I found in this training cycle that doing 800′s made the 1600′s seem much harder, like they go on forever. Not sure if that’s a good or bad thing, but it is absolutely noticeable. I would be scared about getting too “comfortable” with 800′s or anything shorter.

  • elodie

    I think one relevant factor has to be your absolute speed. You might do your 1600s at 6:00 and get some VO2max training effect depending on your paces. I’d do the same interval at 9:00 and be forced to stay firmly under threshold the whole time. For the marathon, threshold is more relevant, but my body develops that system quickly so I don’t need as much time to get it up to snuff. OTOH, I lack economy and need relatively more time to work on this weakness, so VO2max running is useful for me throughout. I’d do 800 – 1000m at 4:00 – 5:00 and get roughly the same training effect as you would at 1600m. (I’d also do 400s but they might not be as relevant for a runner with strong natural economy.)

    As to marathon predictors, I say go for the jugular and just race a half. It doesn’t take long to recover, and it’s a better test of race preparedness. I did a mess of 3 x (4 x 800) in 3:40 to prepare for a half and ran 1:44, which coincidentally predicts a marathon at 3:36. Could I have produced on that prediction? No, because I didn’t do the specific training needed, which is always the way it is with predictions. They assume you’ve done the training, but there’s no way to know for certain until race day. In the end, all training requires an element of faith.

  • elodie

    I think one relevant factor has to be your absolute speed. You might do your 1600s at 6:00 and get some VO2max training effect depending on your paces. I’d do the same interval at 9:00 and be forced to stay firmly under threshold the whole time. For the marathon, threshold is more relevant, but my body develops that system quickly so I don’t need as much time to get it up to snuff. OTOH, I lack economy and need relatively more time to work on this weakness, so VO2max running is useful for me throughout. I’d do 800 – 1000m at 4:00 – 5:00 and get roughly the same training effect as you would at 1600m. (I’d also do 400s but they might not be as relevant for a runner with strong natural economy.)

    As to marathon predictors, I say go for the jugular and just race a half. It doesn’t take long to recover, and it’s a better test of race preparedness. I did a mess of 3 x (4 x 800) in 3:40 to prepare for a half and ran 1:44, which coincidentally predicts a marathon at 3:36. Could I have produced on that prediction? No, because I didn’t do the specific training needed, which is always the way it is with predictions. They assume you’ve done the training, but there’s no way to know for certain until race day. In the end, all training requires an element of faith.

  • Greg

    Good thoughts Elodie, thanks for sharing them. I agree with the half-marathon as a predictor if you can work it into your schedule (and anymore there are so many to choose from). The assumption that “you’ve done the training” is implied, but certainly seems to be overlooked at times.

  • Greg

    Good thoughts Elodie, thanks for sharing them. I agree with the half-marathon as a predictor if you can work it into your schedule (and anymore there are so many to choose from). The assumption that “you’ve done the training” is implied, but certainly seems to be overlooked at times.

  • http://www.runnerspassion.com Runners Passion

    I am used to doing a variety of interval distances in my training. I like to mix things up by doing some 200, 400, 800 and 1600 meter workouts. Sometimes I’ll even do a ladder workout hitting all the distances in one workout! I think doing a variety of interval distances is the way to go.

    However in my current half marathon training I am not doing any intervals and am focusing mainly on tempo runs, fartlek runs and then of course the long runs. But my goal is more finishing rather then for a specific time.

  • http://www.runnerspassion.com Runners Passion

    I am used to doing a variety of interval distances in my training. I like to mix things up by doing some 200, 400, 800 and 1600 meter workouts. Sometimes I’ll even do a ladder workout hitting all the distances in one workout! I think doing a variety of interval distances is the way to go.

    However in my current half marathon training I am not doing any intervals and am focusing mainly on tempo runs, fartlek runs and then of course the long runs. But my goal is more finishing rather then for a specific time.

  • Greg

    Thanks for your comment Daniel. I agree that for making intervals more interesting, mixing them up is a good approach. I’m looking forward to doing the same in a little bit of downtime (and half-marathon training time) between the Akron Marathon and the beginning of the Boston training cycle this fall. I do think that for the “core” of the interval work in marathon training (both to build and assess fitness), the longer intervals work better, though I’m rediscovering the joy (and challenge) of the solid tempo run too.

  • Greg

    Thanks for your comment Daniel. I agree that for making intervals more interesting, mixing them up is a good approach. I’m looking forward to doing the same in a little bit of downtime (and half-marathon training time) between the Akron Marathon and the beginning of the Boston training cycle this fall. I do think that for the “core” of the interval work in marathon training (both to build and assess fitness), the longer intervals work better, though I’m rediscovering the joy (and challenge) of the solid tempo run too.

  • http://twitter.com/viper30ma Kevin Patrick Coyle

    Like you, I too have written on Yasso 800′s. http://www.10e3.com/2010/06/yasso-800s-and-preparation.html… I have also written about Jack Daniels and VDOT. http://www.10e3.com/2010/08/daniels-formula-with-5k-results.html

    So I guess the ultimate question is what is a better predictor of Marathon time? Is it Yasso 800′s or Daniels VDOT?

  • http://gregstrosaker.com Greg Strosaker

    Interesting posts Kevin, I had not see the Daniels VDOT before but it’s predictions look similar to the McMillan calculator. I’m hoping to make some good comparisons in just over a month after the Akron Marathon. Good luck in your own upcoming challenges!